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Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:30 pm Reply and quote this post
Quote:
Either go for the Turion64 X2 or the Core \"2\" Duo (Meron Chip). I would not go for the Core Duo.


Why not? It beats the Turion 64 in the majority of benchmarks including gaming, and sports better battery life to boot.

http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/299/amd...-ddr2/page1.php
http://www.cowcotland.com/article149-1.html

Quote:
But right now, the Meron is not out yet, so I recommend the Acer Aspire 5100.


Erm... I just bought one. Check Dell's pages for their E1705's, XPS M1710's, XPS M1210's and XPS M2010's.

Contributed by A_Pickle, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:23 am Reply and quote this post
Because the Core Duo is a waist of money IMO, when the Meron is so close to coming out. So, he can either wait for the Meron or go for the Turion64 X2.

Also, AMD's Turion64 X2 is quite competative & has great price/performance. Will also outperform the Core Duo in Windows Vista, because the Turionn 64 X2 is 64-Bit while the Core Duo is 32-Bit.


Last edited by Super XP on Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total

Contributed by Super XP, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:59 pm Reply and quote this post
Quote:
Because the Core Duo is a waist of money IMO, when the Meron is so close to coming out.


The Core 2 Duo based on the Merom core isn't \"so close to coming out,\" it's most definitely out. Not in mass quantity yet, but... it's out, and it's available in almost every Dell notebook that they sell (Yes, E1505's, E1405's, etc). This has the effect of greatly reducing prices for the standard Core Duo, which generally eats Turion 64 X2's at the same clockspeed in terms of price, performance, and battery life. Check the benchmarks I linked.

Quote:
Also, AMD's Turion64 X2 is quite competative & has great price/performance.


I never said that it didn't. At the moment, it's probably the cheapest 64-bit mobile chip on the market, so if you're in need of a 64-bit notebook chip at a low price, the Turion 64 X2 might be the chip for you. I'm inclined to note, however, that the Core 2 Duo based on the Merom core is shipping at decently low prices, and it's much faster than the basic Core Duo while offering much better battery life than the Core Duo. That said, the Core Duo generally outperforms the Turion 64 X2, as seen in the benchmarks above.

Quote:
Will also outperform the Core Duo in Windows Vista, because the Turionn 64 X2 is 64-Bit while the Core Duo is 32-Bit.


Most people have absolutely no need for a 64-bit computing environment on a laptop, and our friend tauman5263 stated very clearly that he's \"going to be gaming alot and watching DVDs alot. but i'm also going to use this for college in a few years, so i tried to max out on some upgrades so that my laptop will match that of future laptops and won't \"suck\" if you know what i mean.\"

Sounds to me like his needs don't depend on 64-bit, and it's entirely plausible that Windows XP x64 Edition and/or a 64-bit version of Windows Vista wouldn't do much but complicate things. And even then, if he wants a truly future proof laptop... Merom is available for a Dell Inspiron E1705 for under $1,500.00.

Dell Inspiron E1705:
Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 (2.0 GHz, 667 MHz FSB, 4 MB L2)
1 GB DDR2-533 SDRAM
ATI Mobility Radeon X1400
80 GB 5400 RPM SATA HDD
8x DVD+/-RW ODD
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
17\" TrueLife WSXGA+ UltraSharp LCD Display (1920x1200)
1-year limited warranty
53 WHr 6-cell Lithium-Ion Battery

Subtotal:     $1,402.00
Total:          $1,486.13

With a 20% off coupon for Dell Inspiron laptops above $999, he could customize a laptop like this:

Dell Inspiron E1705:
Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 (2.0 GHz, 667 MHz FSB, 4 MB L2)
1 GB DDR2-533 SDRAM
Nvidia Geforce Go 7900 GS 256 MB
80 GB 5400 RPM SATA HDD
8x DVD+/-RW ODD
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
17\" TrueLife WSXGA+ UltraSharp LCD Display (1920x1200)
1-year limited warranty
53 WHr 6-cell Lithium-Ion Battery

Subtotal:     $1,402.00
Total:          $1,486.13

That laptop would more than play games, and would do so for a very good amount of time. Look at it. A Core 2 Duo and a Geforce Go 7900 GS for under $1,500. That's fantastic. I would recommend spending a little more, or going for a lower GPU in favor of a higher warranty... but if you want power, you've got it. And if you want office stuff, don't pay for that Microsoft s**t. It isn't bad, in fact, it's quite good (and expensive). Get OpenOffice, inspire Microsoft to come up with some reasonable prices for their OS and their office software.

He did say he liked the Compaq due to it's small size... so we could customize a Dell Inspiron E1505 for him...

Dell Inspiron E1505:
Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 (2.0 GHz, 667 MHz FSB, 4 MB L2)
1 GB DDR2-533 SDRAM
ATI Mobility Radeon X1400
80 GB 5400 RPM SATA HDD
8x DVD+/-RW ODD
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
15.4\" TrueLife WSXGA+ UltraSharp LCD Display (1680x1050)
1-year limited warranty
85 WHr 9-cell Lithium-Ion Battery

Subtotal:     $1,282.00
Total:          $1,358.92

Or with the 20% off coupon...

Dell Inspiron E1505:
Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 (2.0 GHz, 667 MHz FSB, 4 MB L2)
2 GB DDR2-533 SDRAM
ATI Mobility Radeon X1400
80 GB 5400 RPM SATA HDD
8x DVD+/-RW ODD
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
15.4\" TrueLife WSXGA+ UltraSharp LCD Display (1680x1050)
1-year limited warranty
85 WHr 9-cell Lithium-Ion Battery

Subtotal:     $1,293.00
Total:          $1,371.23

Ah man. I sure do <3 Dell.

Contributed by A_Pickle, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:36 pm Reply and quote this post
\"Most people have absolutely no need for a 64-bit computing environment on a laptop\"

WHAT? you are wrong. By investing in a notebook, you want to make sure it is future proof, and that is 64-Bit regardless of what anybody says. Just like 16-Bit was taken over by 32-Bit.

A desktop is a different story because you have a wider range of upgrade options & therefore can get away w/ a non-64-Bit PC for the meantime.

So, like I said before, I either recommend the Turion 64 X2 based notebooks which costs cheaper then the Core Duo \"OR\" buy a Core \"2\" Duo (Meron) based notebook.

Benchmarks? So what? if it will take a Turion64 X2 2 to 3 seconds longer to decode a movie or something? It runs amazing right?

La2er

Contributed by Super XP, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:13 am Reply and quote this post
Quote:
WHAT? you are wrong. By investing in a notebook, you want to make sure it is future proof, and that is 64-Bit regardless of what anybody says. Just like 16-Bit was taken over by 32-Bit.


Poppycock. \"Future proof\" is, at best, an oxymoron. Why would you need a 64-bit chip right now? There's no tangible benefit, from a technical standpoint, and going 32-bit is much less of a hassle right now. Even if you did get a Turion 64 X2, you'd be getting a 32-bit operating system and when 64-bit operating systems and drivers become popular, driver support for these 64-bit notebook systems will be nonexistent.

My Compaq Presario 1700US is a five year old laptop that shipped with Windows ME. Finding drivers for it for Windows XP is impossible on HP/Compaq's website. The same will occur for laptops now, so you may just as well get a laptop with a Core Duo which'll not only provide superior system performance, but higher battery life as well.

Seriously, when we're in the era for 128 GB of RAM for a laptop, we'll talk about 32-bit being obsolete. Otherwise, for general notebook usage, it'll work just fine.

Contributed by A_Pickle, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:47 am Reply and quote this post
Guys, remember that even though 32-bit computing is the standard as of right now (and has been for a long time) as soon as Microsoft ships Vista to end-users, 64-bit computing will absolutely explode onto the scene.  It will become the next standard sooner than you think Pickle.  As soon as Vista is released and deemed 'secure and stable' the masses are going to flock to 64-bit applications which programmers are going to write at a dizzying pace.

Technology moves alot faster than people realize.  64-bit computing will be the standard long before you see 128GB standard system memory in a laptop.  I'll bet that in the textbooks of the future, experts are all going to say that 32-bit became 'legacy' shortly after Vista was released.

EDIT: Has anyone realized that the original poster hasn't posted again?  Probably got confused and lost within the arcane debates over all of the opinions.

:)


Last edited by ChrisMG on Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:51 am; edited 1 time in total

Contributed by ChrisMG, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:04 am Reply and quote this post
Wonderfully said ChrisMG,

This is what I was trying to explain to A_Pickle & the person which is looking for a notebook. And once again, this is why I highly recomment the Turion64 X2 or Intel's Core \"2\" Duo (Meron chip) providing that they too are 100% 64-Bit compatable.

Then later on, the owner of the notebook can deside if they would like to move to a 64-Bt OS or something. It just makes his desition a lot smoother IMO.

Take Care,

Contributed by Super XP, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:16 pm Reply and quote this post
Quote:
It will become the next standard sooner than you think Pickle. As soon as Vista is released and deemed 'secure and stable' the masses are going to flock to 64-bit applications which programmers are going to write at a dizzying pace.


I disagree with that, completely. The move from 16-bit to 32-bit doesn't begin to approach the monumental task we have of moving 32-bit to 64-bit. The two transitions are the same only in concept, not in execution. When the world was making the switch from 16-bit processors to 32-bit processors (between 1986 and 1995), there were roughly 24 million PC's, most of them 16-bit. The i386 processor, the first mass distributed 32-bit processor for personal computers, began shipping in late 1986, and saw growth right up until the first Pentium showed up. Windows 3.1, Windows 95, and even Windows 98 had support for 16-bit systems twelve years after the first 32-bit processor began shipping.

Consider 2005, where shipments of the traditional x86-based PC approached 200 million, most of which shipped with 32-bit processors, or at the very least, 32-bit operating systems. There are literally thousands, probably millions, of hardware devices that will require support in a 64-bit environment. Then there're millions of software titles that will need to be ported to the 64-bit environment. Porting over is costly, particularly in terms of software development. Will it happen? Yes, obviously. Will it happen fast? If, by fast, you mean in under or at a year, no. Two years minimum, and that's highly unlikely.

Quote:
Technology moves alot faster than people realize.


Technological progress moves extremely fast. Technological adoption does not.

Quote:
64-bit computing will be the standard long before you see 128GB standard system memory in a laptop. I'll bet that in the textbooks of the future, experts are all going to say that 32-bit became 'legacy' shortly after Vista was released.


What experts say in textbooks 20 years from now is immaterial to me. They may say 32-bit was \"legacy\" \"shortly\" after Vista was shipped, but the fact of the matter is, two or three years down the road 32-bit systems will probably still be dominant. If experts say that 32-bit is legacy, let them. It's really quite immaterial in how these alumni choose to poeticize the situation, the fact of the matter is 32-bit isn't going away any time soon. As far as I'm concerned, the Core Duo is a very viable option.

It may not be *as* future-proof, but that's almost immaterial entirely. You can do anything on a 32-bit system that you can do on a 64-bit system, and that's what matters to people. If they can play their games, make their spreadsheets, browse the internet and talk to their friends, what the hell does a 64-bit operating system matter to them?

How many people bought systems with Athlon 64's but will probably never use a 64-bit operating system on them? How many PC's will ship with 64-bit versions of Vista right from the start?

Let's envision that there's Ted, who bought a notebook with a Turion 64 X2 today, and then there's Chris, who bought a notebook with a Core Duo. Ted and Chris have two year warranties, and intend to use their laptops for no longer than four years before upgradng. Chris gets better performance and better battery life for four years. Ted may get the last laugh being able to install a 64-bit operating system after they're more supported in two or three years.... but then... when Chris's warranty expires, he could just go out and buy a Merom Core 2 Duo chip (which, in two years will probably be quite cheap) which would drop right into his notebook's CPU socket... and then he'd get even better performance, even better battery life, and the ability to install a 32-bit operating system.

Sorry... I'm still gonna have to recommend the Core Duo to people. Even if it isn't *as* future proof, it's does things for notebooks better, and ultimately, that's what people care about. How good of a computing experience will they get from it?

You will be seeing support for 32-bit systems for a long time in the future, and when it's finally time to move to 64-bit... well.... Merom falls right into a Core Duo slot, doesn't it?

Contributed by A_Pickle, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:06 pm Reply and quote this post
Disagreements are what make the world go 'round.

With that said, I'd like to point out that yes, even though people in general might still use 32-bit applications, that doesn't mean they won't move towards 64-bit.  Reason?  Because 64-bit processors fully support 32-bit and even 16-bit modes.  Backwards compatibility.  If Someone can get a 64-bit processor for the same price as a 32-bit processor, yet the 64 can run 32-bit applications, they'll go with that.  The power behind that is going to come from the major computer manufacturers.  When Vista is fully released, they'll begin offering that as a 64-bit Operating System in lieu of 32-bit.  People WILL buy those.  Personal knowledge, media attention and any computer nerd they know is going to tell them to go with the 64-bit system for future compatibility.  At first, they will be more expensive, but prices will drop and the influx of 64-bit systems will start.  

I never said it would happen over two years.  I never said it would happen over 3 years.  It will happen within the span of 5 years though.  And in 5 years time, there will be an astronomical amount of applications written to optimize on 64-bit code.  Take video card protocols for example.  PCI was replaced by AGP in the span of less than 5 years.  AGP has been replaced by PCI-Express in the span of 5 years (after PCI-E was released).  To solidify this arguement, all one needs to do is take a look at Newegg.  As of right now, they offer approximately 176 AGP cards (of varying speeds) Yet they offer over 300 PCI-E cards.  Like I said, once technology moves in the direction its going to go, people will ultimately follow.  Prices drop, performance raises and everyone is happy.

On another note, people with 32-bit only processors will move to 64-bit anyway.  Anytime someone's computer craps out on them, why would they go out and buy a 32-bit processor when they can \"upgrade\" to a 64-bit solution for the same price (or in 5 years, maybe even cheaper)?  They won't do that.  

I never disagreed with you about the Core Duo.  You're right in that aspect, if you can just drop a better processor in, then hey it makes sense.  But the same holds true for everything else.  There WILL be upgradability with almost every system.


Last edited by ChrisMG on Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Contributed by ChrisMG, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:54 pm Reply and quote this post
Well said ChrisMG, I agree.

And to add, IMO, the usual \"complete\" PC upgrade time frame is about every 3 to 5 years. Upgrading simple things like ram, cpu & HD into your existing case is probably done just only after a year or so.

So, once again, it makes a lot of sense to have a 64-Bit / 32-Bit compatable CPU. Maybe you will want to try out Vista 64-Bit in 2007 & see how it runs, before you purchase it or something, but with 32-bit you will not be able take advantage of that.

Take Care,

P.S. Dual Core \"Really\" rocks I tell you  :)


Last edited by Super XP on Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

Contributed by Super XP, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:42 pm Reply and quote this post
Quote:
Technological progress moves extremely fast. Technological adoption does not.
Though it often seems that way, if that were so, society would continue to fall farther and farther back from what we have available in technology, which I don't see happening.  I agree, adaption to specific things is slow, but in the overall scheme, we are adapting at about the same rate as technology is progressing.

Contributed by Josh, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:36 pm Reply and quote this post
We aren't, though. There are people who're running 700 MHz Celerons on Windows 98 out there. People do not adopt technology as it comes out, the vast majority of ordinary people guide the world of personal computing. If technological adoption occurred at the same rate of technological progress, we wouldn't have seen Microsoft continue supporting Windows 98 and Windows Me past their original support date.

People will not jump into Vista, 64-bit, or anything super-revolutionary anytime soon. The XP-era sold so many computers to so many people, you will be seeing cross-platform support for both Windows XP and Windows Vista for a long time to come.

Contributed by A_Pickle, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:11 pm Reply and quote this post
Ok, so there are people still running Win98.  I'll admit that.

Windows XP was released on October 25th, 2001.  Almost 5 years ago to the month.  \"Windows XP was first released on October 25, 2001, and as of 2006 continues to be the most recent consumer version of Microsoft Windows available, with over 400 million copies in use, according to an estimate by an IDC analyst.\"

You telling me that people don't adopt technology as it comes out?  5 years and XP dominates the worlds OS market.

I'd say thats adopting at a decent rate.

In 5 years, Vista will dominate the OS market.  There will be cross-platforming, sure, but just like XP is now, Vista will be in the future (along with its 64-bit support)


Last edited by ChrisMG on Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

Contributed by ChrisMG, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:09 pm Reply and quote this post
Agree'd.

Also to note, computer companies like HP, DELL, Acer, Compaq, etc. will also most likely push the new Vista OS alost every PC they sell. As long as they get the go ahead & the third party support, it will fly.

One thing to remember is that Windows Vista is a different king of OS, very different then Windows XP. And will be pushed out the door like there is no tomorrow.

Contributed by Super XP, iVirtua Ultimate Contributor
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Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:59 am Reply and quote this post
Quote:
So, once again, it makes a lot of sense to have a 64-Bit / 32-Bit compatable CPU. Maybe you will want to try out Vista 64-Bit in 2007 & see how it runs, before you purchase it or something, but with 32-bit you will not be able take advantage of that.


Most users could really care less. Once again, you are looking at this from an enthusiast's perspective rather than one of an end-user. For all intents and purposes, the Core Duo laptop will more than perform at any task. Rest assured, in five years time, the latest and greatest operating system will more than likely have a 32-bit distribution, as well as a 64-bit one.

Quote:
You telling me that people don't adopt technology as it comes out? 5 years and XP dominates the worlds OS market.


Yes. As you thoughtfully pointed out, it's taken people five years to adopt Windows XP. That's not adoption \"as technology comes out.\" Adoption \"at a decent rate?\" Perhaps... though I'm inclined to ask, what defines a decent rate? Windows XP is the dominant operating system if by numbers alone, not because people \"adopted it quickly.\" It's been in the cycle for longer than any other release of Windows.

Windows 3.1: March 18, 1992
Windows 95: August 24, 1995
Windows 98/ 98SE: June 25, 1998 / May 5, 1999
Windows 2000/ ME: Febuary 17, 2000 / September 14, 2000
Windows XP: October 25, 2001

Thus, the time between Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 was roughly three years, from '95 to '98 was roughly three years, from '98 to ME was two years, from ME to XP was a little over one year, and from Windows XP to the present has been, as you have kindly pointed out, nearing five years. As Vista is not slated for release up until January of 2007, Windows XP will probably make that milestone, barring any surprise releases from Microsoft. Windows XP has been in retail/OEM channels for the longest, and not only that, it's been in those channels during which the majority of personal computers have been sold.

Some more numbers to crunch, take a look at computers sold with each operating system:

Windows 3.1(1992-1995): 128,750,000 units
Windows 95 (1995-1998): 171,300,000 units
Windows 98/ 98SE (1998-2000): 250,335,000 units
Windows 2000/ ME (2000-2001): 124,826,000 units
Windows XP (2001-2005): 642,287,000 units
Total: 1,317,498,000 units

Percentage-wise, that goes as:

Windows 3.1: 10%
Windows 95: 13%
Windows 98/ 98SE: 19%
Windows 2000/ ME: 9%
Windows XP: 49%

So, even if none of the people who bought pre-XP systems didn't buy any upgrades to XP, Windows XP would still be the dominant operating system (mind you, my figures do not count systems sold in 2006). To completely ignore people who upgraded would be foolhardy, of course Windows XP is the dominant operating system. It's dominance simply has nothing to do with people's \"rapid adoption,\" rather the contrary -- it's been out longer than any other Windows release, and it happened to be out during the period of time where people started to jump on the PC bandwagon. Right time, right place. If anything, people's sudden adoption of Microsoft's sixth operating system is indicative of the fact that people do not jump into technology as do you or I.

People do not buy computers to buy computers, as enthusiasts such as you or I would. They buy tools. So long as that tool is capable of performing the tasks they need it to perform, most people will not invest in a new one. It's really that simple.

Quote:
In 5 years, Vista will dominate the OS market.


I would not count on that. Windows XP's duration was a mistake, mostly having to do with delays met with Vista. Vista was scheduled to launch in 2003, yet won't make it out 'til 2007. I doubt if Vista will last five years, as Steve Ballmer pledged to shorten Windows release cycles (in lieu of the errantly arduous reign of Windows XP).

Quote:
Ok, so there are people still running Win98. I'll admit that.


Mmm. Quite a few, to the contrary of the thesis that \"technological adoption\" occurs rapidly. Microsoft extended support for Windows 98 and Windows ME past their original cutoff time, and ended their support this year (finally). Even so, an estimated 50-70 million people will have no support for their operating system. Apparently they still don't feel the need to adopt new technology.

Quote:
Also to note, computer companies like HP, DELL, Acer, Compaq, etc. will also most likely push the new Vista OS alost every PC they sell.


But that's just it. They have to, in fact, sell their computers. If someone has a perfectly functioning Pentium M laptop... why would they be inclined to buy a new one? I can guarantee you, most people won't opt to spend that much money on a new computer because the new operating system looks pretty. If that were the case, Apple would carry more market share these days, wouldn't they?

Thus, I maintain: People do not adopt technology at nearly the pace that technology progresses. Quite honestly, this point is self-evident, I am unsure as to why it's being contested.

Quote:
As long as they get the go ahead & the third party support, it will fly.


Neither of those points matter nearly as much as the most important thing of all: Consumer intent. If consumers are interested enough in Vista to buy it, then it will be a financially successful operating system. As I stated above, there are people out there who've found that all the computing they need is available within Windows 98 (for all intents and purposes, it is). They have a tool that works, why spend money on another one? People won't do that.

Quote:
One thing to remember is that Windows Vista is a different king of OS, very different then Windows XP.


To be frank, it really isn't that much different than Windows XP. Granted, it sports some new features, a vastly overhauled kernel and a new look, but it isn't \"very\" different at all. My apps all work just fine and dandy on that NTFS filesystem/NT kernel operating system.

That, frankly, is the Achilles' heel that will sell, or sink, Vista. If it is truly a secure operating system, people may be inclined to upgrade to it. If it is found to be a more annoying, albeit prettier version of Windows XP, people will most certainly NOT buy it.


Last edited by A_Pickle on Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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