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So with with latest lebanon conflict, I'm just wondering... is Israel actually salvageable? Israel was a state founded by political pressuring, war guilt, and terrorism, and yet we are backing a theocracy which basically excludes all non-orthodox Jews. Even if this wasn't morally reprehensible, they are the biggest reason the Middle East hates the US. FInally, Jewish security interests were a big reason the US went to Iraq; Bush and his backers didn't want any missles pointed at Israel.
So can there be peace found? Or are the Jews not going to learn that it's everybody's Holy Land, and they still aren't welcome there?
On the one side, Israel should not exist. Every problem the west has with Middle East is linked either directly or indirectly to Israel. Israel will never enjoy peace a long as it exists.
On the other, Israel should not exist. Every problem the west has with Middle East is linked either directly or indirectly to Israel. Israel will never enjoy peace a long as it exists.
After the war, when the horrors of the Germans were blatantly and graphically laid out for all the world to see, the migration problem only got worse: now there were all these Jews who had been taken from their homes and shunted into ghettos and then to concentration camps, and now had no home to go back to. Sentiment in Eastern Europe was still anti-Jew, as evidenced by a July, 1946 pogrom in the Polish town of Kielce. Migration restrictions throughout the world failed to lighten. And so, based upon a still-ubiquitous desire to keep immigrants away, Israel was founded.
Matbe Israel should exist because it is the only reasonable solution to the pervasive, unending, universal fact that people hate Jews, because they're Jewish. It's not the perfect solution, however, because that country has to be somewhere, and wherever it is, its neighbors will hate Jews.
America did create Israel in effect, causing the problems, and backing the jews, effectively stealing palestinian land.
The question is, if they are innocent, they are at least hosting terrorists, and they know they are... Libannon has an army of 72000 men, they could drive out the Hisbollah themself, but they won't... two of their ministers are hisbollah...
There you go, it's way too complicated to just give black and white statements, unfortunatly.
Yes I personally think all countries have a right to exist. If Im not mistaken I belive that Isreal goes all the way back to the times of the bible. Enough said.
Atomic77, Israel was created by the US, please read my above post, it was taken from Palestine and that area, that is why the US are so hated, it was used to put the Jews after the Holocaust, effectively, the US came and stole their land to put the Jews on, and now the US supply aramaents and supplies and defences for them to go and do this to lebanon.
I am aware of many lebanon members here, one of which says he is confined to his home as a result of the War, and after hearing from him (Not the biansed media), I understand to a little more extent what is going on there.
There you go, it's way too complicated to just give black and white statements, unfortunatly.
I'm removed that post (above yours) as I must say it is a bit to black and white, and more suited to elsewhere in the forums, as this debate must be taken a little more seriously. Please Justify your comments
Israel was not created by the USA Sam, its been in history for millions of years, ever heard of Jesus?
Also its not the county or the people who live in the country that are making the situation worse, its the people who run the country.
You cant just 'destroy' the country, because a). thats sinking to their level and b). were the hell would all the people go?
You have to think clearly about these things sam you cant just say Israel does not exist anyomore, the chances are that it will cause even more trouble in the Middle East.
Oh and Sam it is not just America's fault that this crisis is going on in the Middle East, you may have read that the UK (or Tony Blair) allowed weapons and equipment made in the UK to be shipped out to Israel, so the fault does not fall directly onto the US's shoulders.
However I am not condoning what Israel, America and the UK are doing, basically Israel is destroying an inocent country which had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks on Israel.
However I am not condoning what Israel, America and the UK are doing, basically Israel is destroying an inocent country which had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks on Israel.
Read my post and you'll see that at least their government is not so innocent...
Israel was not created by the USA Sam, its been in history for millions of years, ever heard of Jesus?
Millions of years? The Year 0 was 2006 years ago, also thats Jerusalem. Israel as it is was created after the war to Jews to flee too in 1948, effectively by the US.
Will, how about this CBBC Article to explain it to you; it is actually very good.
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Before the First World War Palestine was a district ruled by the Turkish Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans were defeated by Britain and her allies in the war.
After WW1 Britain took control of Palestine, but there were many troubles between the Arabs who lived there and Jews who wanted to live there too.
After the Second World War, Britain decided to let the United Nations decide what to do with Palestine.
The United Nations suggested separating Palestine into two countries, one Arab and one Jewish.
The Arab leaders said no to the plan, but the Jewish leaders accepted it and declared the state of Israel. The President of the United States gave his support to the new state.
However the Arab leaders were not happy. War broke out between and Israel's Arab neighbours, (including Egypt and Jordan) and the new country.
After months of intense fighting, Israel and her Arab neighbours agreed to stop the war. However relations between them were still tense and more wars followed.
Israel began as a homeland for Jewish people. In the early part of the 20th century thousands of Jews moved to the area before it became Israel to start new lives and set up new communities.
Jews have long historical and religious ties to the land dating back thousands of years, but the country itself was only created in 1948.
Many were escaping Europe and Russia as they were badly treated there because they were Jewish. Many more moved to Israel after the Holocaust, including from Arab countries.
About a fifth of the Israeli population are Arab. These people are the descendents of the Palestinians who remained in the country during the first Arab-Israeli war of 1948.
You cant just 'destroy' the country, because a). thats sinking to their level and b). were the hell would all the people go?
Nobody mentioned Destroying a country, or it's people, but the question is (and is not necessarily my view), should it exist, moreover, should it have been created? Besides, as I mention below, in simple terms to summary events, it is the cause of many of the 20th century Middel East Conflicts.
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Also its not the county or the people who live in the country that are making the situation worse, its the people who run the country.
The people who run the country cannot be directly blaimed, nor can it's citizens, but if parts of a country were just taken and occupied, (although yes, the Jews had to go somewhere), what would your reaction be as a leader? It is difficult to "Blame" someone because of the course of events.
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You have to think clearly about these things sam you cant just say Israel does not exist anyomore, the chances are that it will cause even more trouble in the Middle East.
Again, nobody mentioned destroying Israel, only questioning history, and why how its creation has affected history. Also ofcourse I did not say it doesn't exist.
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...thats sinking to their level ...
They are not subhuman, then read below to find out what has angered them for so many years, and why this is building up, maybe this is coming to something where they are going to do something big, bigger than 9/11.
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Oh and Sam it is not just America's fault that this crisis is going on in the Middle East, you may have read that the UK (or Tony Blair) allowed weapons and equipment made in the UK to be shipped out to Israel, so the fault does not fall directly onto the US's shoulders.
Britain has little or no industry left, and aramaments are not shipped abroad any more. The Israli army don't use Land Rovers do they?
It is well know thayt because of US backing, they are "allowed" Nuclear Armaments, Israeli nuclear 'power' exposed, and Iran are not... for obious reasons I express below. In the 1950s, as the Nuclear forefront was headed by the Uk, theonly event was http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4515708.stm. That was in the 1950s.
Now Consider this: July 21st 2006
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WASHINGTON, July 21 — The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
ISRAEL The Israeli military massed vehicles near Lebanon’s border. Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa and other towns in northern Israel.
LEBANON The Lebanese defense minister said the army would resist any invasion. Israeli warplanes hit targets throughout the country and at least 12 Lebanese were reported killed.
WASHINGTON The Bush administration is rushing precision-guided bombs to Israel at the Israelis’ request, American officials said. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she would go to Israel tomorrow and then meet Arab and
Israeli airstrikes heavily damaged a mainly Shiite section of Beirut's suburbs.
The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.
However I am not condoning what Israel, America and the UK are doing, basically Israel is destroying an inocent country which had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks on Israel.
The UK Doesn't have much a part in this, but to improve relations with the US, they need to collaborate, and consult what thay can with the UN, that's glabal relations. Israel cannot be seen as bombing a country fro no reason ["innocent"], the terrorist groups are closely linked to the government, it is far, far more complex.
Finally, I was speaking to an american today, and thought I would post this.
This is how I proposed my argument, simply on MSN.
The US is to blame really. The Jews who were saved from the ghettos after the holocaust had to be put somewhere
and they put Israel there as it is today they took land from Palestine and effectively invaded them they therefore support them. they should get out of there for the sake of oil... Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon,9/11 would not have happened, the US would not need to be worried about Iran having nuclear weapons, Iran could not attack America, but wouldn’t they just love to send a cruse missile over to Israel... which is effectively the US
They should just be left alone terrorists would not target the US and in turn the whole of the West as the US is so powerful and overshadows the west with the UN... and controls the UN overpowers and goes against the Un peacekeeping
"The Un is bullshit", said one Lebanese to me, that is true has some element of truth to it, then we have the constant military presence to rub it in, how would an American like it if some Arabs came and set up full scale military base down the road and drove armoured tanks past your street daily
also to run it in the US goes and holds people in Guantanamo bay without trial, as they are outside the US, and they can treat them like crap, racially, sexually and mentally abuse sometimes innocent people. No wonder why bin laden exists, and there is so much hatred in the Middle East towards the West.
American:
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we don't understand exactly what it's like over there...we can't just be sitting on our butts talking about how suck one country is and how much we know more than the other one etc. etc.
because you just heard it from another scource who heard it from another scource etc.
i don't mean to be rude but i hear this all the time
Thats from a normal american citizen...
I was speaking to a friend I have in Lebanon who took a photo of a child without a head and sent it to me. Talk about Sources.
I think we are missing somthing very important here,
what about Israel citizens who have been subjected to Hezbollah's rocket fire?
Do they not count? If I was incharge of Israel I would certainly hit back against Hezbollah, however maybe not in the way the Israel goverment are doing. You cant say that this 'war' is unjustified because it is, Hezbollah have attacked Israel and as such Israel has hit back. I do believe that a cease fire should be called upon immediatly. However this is Hezbollah's fault and they should be blamed for causing all of this. Hezbollah has the blood of thousands of their kin men however they still insist on fighting Israel, who in the end are going to win, with both US and UK backing.
Its wrong I know what both Israel and Hezbollah have done, a muslim friend of mine said this:
'Wars should be fought in open space, were children and mothers can not be killed'
This is true and its ashame both Hezbollah and Israel have bomed innocent people.
I also have a feeling that the middle east crisis is going to feed into the so called World War 3. Why you may ask. Terrorism its a world problem that simply won't go away. Israel has a right to exist as so does Iraq and North Korea and any other country. Enough said for now.
Hezbollah have attacked Israel and as such Israel has hit back.
The debate here is not about this latest conflict and justifying the war that the americans are backing, if you read my post you will see why the Hezbollah have been attacking israel, and you can even see why the west, namely the US has such bad relations with the middle east. Israel are being attacked, and are only retailiating becuase they are haveily backed by the United States, I was sure I had made that clear in the above post.
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However this is Hezbollah's fault and they should be blamed for causing all of this
As I said, and I will repeat, the course of events mean they cannot be blamed; they are the only line of defense for some of the lebanese, and do not fight for nothing; they also justify with Holy War, now I have in my above post tried to explain it ex the religious aspect (why Israel is looked upon the way it is), but their Holy Land was effectively taken off them by the US, now if that isn't enough to provke a holy war, I don't know what is.
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This is true and its ashame both Hezbollah and Israel have bomed innocent people
.
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a muslim friend of mine said this
This is the problem of many wars,if not all, look at Dresden and the Carbet Bombing in Germany, 1940, and Hiroshima, there are not Muslims, but White people who obliterated two entire cities, but quoting a you are indicating that it is those fighting, but many US Tropps are supporting Israel with their armaments, and killing innocent Lebonese; I'm sure we could get some First Hand Evidence of that.
To summrise, I am just saying that Israel is generally "hated" as such in the Middle East because of the Events I have mentioned, and what the West, namely the US, if not only, have done; the UK and other western countries gat draughted in because we have to ally with the US and as the US generally control the UN that's how it works out; add in guantanamo bay, nearly 60 years of Israels Existance, the stolen land, the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
After the 1948 war, Jordan took control of the West Bank and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Both were captured by Israel during a war in 1967 and Israel then took control of both areas.
Since then Israel has set up many Jewish settlements - communities, some tiny, some as big as small towns - in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
These settlements are considered illegal under international law, although Israel does not agree with this. - Israel continues to take land.
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fighting Israel, who in the end are going to win, with both US and UK backing.
The US cannot affford all out war; not financially, but if they, which they could have obliterated Lebanon, the viablility would be outrageous, they cannot do anything, as far as negociate some ceasefire in the next few months between the state armies. Maybe they should stop suppoting Israel? Maybe that's the only way out?
The US are stuck, lets forget the EU and the UK for now, who are merely allies in the West, as however close the EU, Russia, UK get to creating the state of Palestine, the US cannot, considering its sheer support for Israel, a big mistake.
Isreael and its US backing is not at all innocent as such, despite being on stolen land as such, and disputed land, The Israeli army went back into areas that it had handed over to the Palestinians. Israel says it needs to do this to stop the suicide attacks inside Israel, while Palestinians say the current Israeli leaders want to set back Palestinian efforts to rule themselves.
The United Nations suggested separating Palestine into two countries, one Arab and one Jewish, the Jewish leaders accepted it and declared the state of Israel. The President of the United States gave his full support to the new state, and helped enforce it.
This debate is questioning the existance of Israel and how it has affected relations, conflicts and the lives of hundereds of thousands. With US backing, maybe Israel should be negociating, considering the past.
The UK, Russia and the EU could help easily, talks are held about creating a state of Palestine, but this will not happen unless the US does the same, and helps palestine, but that would be the 100pposite to what they have been doing, in supporting Israel. The plan hopes a state of Palestine could be created in the next few years.
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Terrorism its a world problem that simply won't go away.
Indeed, it is a result of 60 years of Israel, of course thay have a right to exist, but maybe the US should support the countries it invaded and took over too...
Would War 3 as such wouldn't really happen unless the US get something big, like a big county stepping in and saying anough is enough, I doubt it will happen with the UK and US and therefore UN and NATO Allys, and with Tony Blairs penis stuck in George Bushes Anus, but the US needs to stop support of Israel.
Some Palestinians say the violence won't end until the peace process shows it can improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians. Other Palestinians, like the Islamic militants, want to destroy Israel and won't take part in any kind of peace talks, considering 60 years of everything above, that we have mentioned, put yourself in their position.
I think, for now as we have the base sides of a debate here with justification, we are all western (Me, Applet (Will), Andurion, Atomic77) , altough most of us have tried to be as Neutral as possible. I know we have some Lebanese members here, It would be good If we could here their point of view on things.
I was think last night that at first I supported Israel and what they were doing, now although I think what both sides are doing is wrong, Israel do not care about who is apart on the attacks on their country and all they seem to be doing is invading Lebonan.
I hope Mr. Bliar and Mr. Bush come to their senses (which they probably wont do) and call for an immediate cease fire.
Its funny that America is supplying Israel with missles and Lebonan with medical aid, however they just dont get the fact that it is their American made missles which are killing innocent people.
I have been hearing about the conflict alot on the news lately but I don't really truely understand what the whole deal is about hear.I don't even truely know what started the isreal lebonon thing in the first place.
I have been hearing about the conflict alot on the news lately but I don't really truely understand what the whole deal is about hear.I don't even truely know what started the isreal lebonon thing in the first place.
Then go and buy a good newspaper, I'd take the weekend edition, they should contain a detailed "how come..." about this matter...
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